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The podcast episode “Deep Dive Into Numerical Discourses” explores how Işık Barış Fidaner’s project uses AI-generated dialogues to reflect on technology, society, and the digital world. It discusses concepts like the “gaze factory” on social media, where algorithms manipulate human desires for validation, and questions whether AI can help break free from capitalist-driven narratives. The episode connects this with theories from psychoanalysis and utopian thought, particularly Frederick Jameson’s work on capitalism and utopias.

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1) Numerical Discourses: A New Digital Depth Exploration!

2) Nümerik Söylemler

This is part of Numerical Discourses

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All right, so are you ready to dive deep into something today?

Always up for a deep dive. What are we looking at?

Well, today it’s numerical discourses.

Numerical discourses?

Yeah, and it’s this project that uses AI to explore technology, society, and thought.

Yeah, exactly. I’ve heard of this. It’s really interesting. We have these two blog posts—one from ID Shayer and another from Ean Analysis—that really get into it.

And they are both looking at the same project?

Yeah, both on this numerical discourses thing, using AI-generated dialogues.

Right, that’s the thing: exploring, like you said, society and technology. It’s a unique approach, for sure.

It is because it’s like, are these systems talking to each other, or are we just listening in on something? It’s like, whoa.

And what’s even more wild is this guy, Işık Barış Fidaner.

Okay.

He’s the one kind of behind all this—the project. And this actually came out of another project, a radio show, Numerical Breezes.

Numerical Breezes?

Yeah, and they were already talking about realistic Utopias back then.

So Numerical Breezes is like the foundation for this?

Yeah, like the groundwork. And they were already playing with AI—not just to analyze what’s going on now, but how to use it to shape the future.

Yeah, exactly. That’s the thing that makes it so fascinating. Can AI actually be more than algorithms, you know? Can it actually help us achieve, like I say, realistic Utopias?

So we know where it came from, but what does realistic Utopias even mean in this context?

It’s kind of saying, hey, just dreaming about a perfect world isn’t going to cut it. We’ve got these tools, so let’s use AI to figure out how to actually get there, how to bridge that gap between, you know, the dream and reality.

So less like pie in the sky and more like actual blueprints?

Yeah, grounded in what AI can actually do.

Okay, that’s really interesting. I’m hooked already. So how does numerical discourses actually use AI to, you know, tackle all this?

Through dialogue, believe it or not.

Really?

Yeah, Fidaner set up these AI-generated dialogues. And let me tell you, they get into some stuff.

What are they talking about? Give me an example.

One that really stuck with me—and I think this is something everyone can relate to, especially in our plugged-in world—is this whole idea of social media as a “gaze factory.”

A gaze factory? Okay, now you have to explain that.

Okay. How often are you scrolling through social media, and you just get this feeling of, like, you know, being watched? Almost like you’re being judged, even by this unseen audience?

Oh, all the time. Like every post, every like, it’s like someone’s watching and analyzing.

Exactly. And that’s the digital gaze they’re talking about. But—and here’s the kicker—it’s not just some random thing. This gaze is being, like, manufactured, amplified even, by the algorithms, by the system itself. Hence, the gaze factory.

So you’re saying social media has weaponized this very human thing—this need to compare, to judge—and turned it into this system that keeps us hooked?

It’s not just about being seen, though. Think about it. It’s this pressure to explain yourself online, to justify your presence.

Oh yeah, and the algorithm plays a key role in that.

Shayer’s analysis really breaks this down.

Okay, so the algorithms are pulling the strings. But how? Like, what’s the science behind this whole gaze factory?

It’s all about what grabs your attention online, right? Think about it.

Okay, yeah.

It’s the stuff that gets a reaction. Could be something controversial, something that just throws you off, or something that makes you feel bad about yourself, right? Like, “Oh, look at them.”

Exactly. And the algorithm knows this. It’s designed to pick up on that.

So it’s like a slot machine, basically, just churning out content designed to—

Yes! To get us to react, to keep us engaged. And every time we do react, every time we comment, every like, we’re feeding that machine. We’re part of the whole thing.

So it’s not just, “Oh, I’m being watched.” It’s like, “I’m part of this whole system.”

Exactly.

This is wild.

Okay, it’s like this weird digital hall of mirrors, right? Where we’re the audience and the performer all at once, and the algorithm is like the puppet master.

The puppet master, yeah, the one setting the stage.

Okay. And speaking of setting the stage, this leads us to another really interesting AI dialogue in these posts. This one’s all about Frederick Jameson.

Oh yeah, Frederick Jameson. I was really interested in this. Shayer even calls him a “Leninist master of utopia,” whatever that means.

It’s a lot.

Yeah, before we go there, can you give me the SparkNotes on Frederick Jameson? Why is he such a big deal, and what does he have to do with all of this?

So, Jameson spent his life thinking about how we imagine utopias, especially in a world that’s completely immersed in capitalism. And he wasn’t just theorizing about it; he really thought understanding this stuff could help us actually build a better future.

Okay, so where does AI fit into all of this? And how does it connect to numerical discourses?

Remember how we were talking about those desires, those really deep-seated desires that the gaze factory manipulates? Jameson argued that a lot of that desire for status, validation, for more, is actually imposed on us by these capitalist systems. We’re programmed to want these things.

Yes, we’re wired to want these things, to crave them, to consume. And as long as we’re stuck in that cycle, we can’t really even imagine a different future, a radically different future.

So instead of dreaming up our own utopias, we’re stuck chasing after these manufactured desires that only benefit the system itself?

Exactly. And that’s where Jameson’s work lines up with numerical discourses in this mind-blowing way.

Okay, all right, you’re killing me. How does AI fit into this whole utopia-capitalism thing?

So, remember, numerical discourses is all about using AI to help us think differently, right? Not just to analyze. One of the ways it does that is by looking at this concept from Jacques Lacan, who is a psychoanalyst.

Okay.

And he really influenced Jameson’s work.

Lacan, the psychoanalyst?

Yeah. Lacan talked about these things called discourses, specifically the master’s discourse and the analyst’s discourse. To put it simply, the master’s discourse is like those dominant narratives, those power structures that shape what we want, and even limit our imagination—kind of like those capitalist systems that Jameson critiques.

So the master’s discourse is like the puppet master, and the analyst’s discourse is like the— is it the one trying to break free?

Yes! It’s all about questioning, about challenging those dominant narratives. It’s about seeing the strings and figuring out how to cut them, or at least retie them, you know, and create something different.

Yes, okay. So how does this all connect back to AI and Jameson’s utopias?

That’s the question, right? Could AI, in a way, be used to help us engage in that analyst’s discourse? Could it help us deconstruct those desires we’ve internalized, those capitalist-driven desires, and open up some space to imagine something truly transformative?

So instead of AI just reinforcing that control, could it help us break free?

Exactly! That’s what makes numerical discourses so exciting. It’s not just about understanding how technology shapes us. It’s about how it can help us break free from those very systems and create something truly utopian.

Okay, my mind is officially blown. We went from algorithms on social media to the very nature of what we want, and AI could help us break free from all that?

That’s a lot, right? And this is still just scratching the surface. These numerical discourses—it’s an ongoing thing. Both of these articles hint at even more AI dialogues coming out.

So if AI can help us break down these systems that we don’t even see, you know, and understand how they shape our desires, could it also help us design new ones? Like systems that are built on collaboration, empathy, all that good stuff?

That’s the big question, isn’t it? Can we use this technology not just to analyze everything but to actually create a better world—a world that’s fairer, more just, more fulfilling for everyone?

It’s like numerical discourses is throwing down a challenge, not just to academics, but to everyone, like, “Hey, this technology is here. It’s powerful. Let’s use it right. Let’s ask the big questions, the ones that actually matter.”

Yeah, and these aren’t just abstract questions, right? This has real implications for how we live our lives, how we interact with technology every day.

Absolutely.

So, as we’re wrapping up this deep dive, here’s what I’m thinking: If AI can have these dialogues that help us deconstruct all these systems—the ones that limit us—what else could it do? What other possibilities are out there? What other hidden stuff could it uncover?

Right? What other futures could it help us build?

Yeah, exactly. It’s really fascinating stuff.

It really is. And it reminds us that this whole digital age—it’s not just about the technology itself. It’s about ideas.

Yeah, it’s about pushing the boundaries

of what we think, what we imagine. And maybe, just maybe, AI can be a part of that.

I like that. I like that a lot.

Well, that’s our deep dive for today. Thanks for joining me on this one.

Always a pleasure.