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The podcast episode “Deep Dive Into Effort” explores Işık Barış Fidaner’s views on the concept of effort, distinguishing between “symbolic engagement” (superficial work) and “real engagement” (genuine passion). Fidaner ties this to entropy, emphasizing unpredictability in meaningful work and questioning traditional notions of success. He challenges the idea that potential energy is innate, proposing instead that effort shapes one’s potential over time. This rethinking of effort encourages embracing failures and uncertainties as part of the creative journey.

Generated by Google’s NotepadLM website given these links:

1) Working-Class Pride and Authorization

2) Effort is engaged labor-power

3) Knowledge-at-work is an Effort with Real Engagement

4) Symbolic Engagement and Real Engagement

5) All Success is a Success of the Repression of Sacrifice

This is part of Numerical Discourses

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We all want to succeed in life, right? It’s this thing we’re told to chase after, and we’re always told success comes from hard work, effort, and all that. But what if I told you there’s a whole other side to this whole effort thing—something we don’t always see? It’s true. There’s this kind of hidden dimension to effort, and when you start looking at it that way, things get really interesting.

We often think, “Oh, effort—you put in the work, you get the results.” But it’s rarely that simple. So, how do we even begin to unpack this whole effort equation? Who’s got the answers? Well, we’re diving into some fascinating stuff from Işık Barış Fidaner. He’s a computer scientist, which is interesting in itself, but he also thinks about philosophy in a really deep way. Computer science and philosophy—now that’s a combo you don’t see every day.

What led us to this Fidaner guy? He’s got this idea about how we think about effort, and he makes a distinction between, get this: symbolic engagement and real engagement. Symbolic versus real—okay, now you’ve really got me curious. Break that down for me.

All right, picture this: you’re stuck in a job you hate, but you keep showing up every day. Why? Paycheck, right? That’s symbolic engagement—going through the motions because society tells you it’s the responsible thing to do.

Oh yeah, I think we’ve all been there. It’s like you’re playing the game, even though you don’t really believe in the rules anymore.

Exactly. Now, flip that around. Think about something you do—maybe a side hustle, something that truly lights you up, even if it’s not making you a dime. Not yet, at least. That’s real engagement talking. It’s coming from somewhere deeper, something that just clicks with you, even if it doesn’t make sense in the traditional way. It’s like that feeling you get—that gut feeling that you’re on the right track, even if you can’t explain why.

Precisely. And here’s where things get really wild. Fidaner connects this idea of real engagement to the concept of entropy—from physics.

Entropy, like as in my desk is a black hole of entropy? Hold on, how do we go from real engagement to my messy desk? Explain this one to me.

Okay, so entropy is usually associated with chaos, disorder, right? Like a messy room that just seems to get messier no matter how hard you try. But there’s another side to entropy.

All right, so there’s more to entropy than meets the eye. I’m listening.

It also relates to the arrow of time—how things unfold in ways we can’t always predict or control. And sometimes, the most meaningful efforts, the ones fueled by real engagement—well, they’re kind of like that too. They embrace this unpredictable nature of, well, everything. It’s not about perfectly planning every little step or trying to squeeze out every ounce of potential energy. It’s about diving in, maybe getting your hands a little dirty, and just seeing where the path leads.

That actually reminds me of another one of Fidaner’s ideas that kind of blew my mind. He said, and I’m quoting here, “All success is the success of the repression of sacrifice.”

Okay, I’ve got to be honest, that one threw me for a loop. What did he mean by that?

He’s getting at this thing we do—how we often downplay the effort, the struggle, all the cost that goes into achieving something.

Huh. I never thought about it like that before.

We see it all the time, though, right? People say, “Oh, I appreciate your effort,” or “Respect for the struggle.” Sounds harmless, even supportive on the surface, right?

Yeah, totally. You’d never think those kinds of phrases could have another meaning.

But Fidaner’s point is that those phrases can actually be, well, a way of undermining someone’s effort. Like a subtle way of saying, “You tried your best, but…”

Oh wow, you’re right. It’s like a participation trophy. It acknowledges the effort, but also kind of says it wasn’t quite good enough for real success.

I’ve totally been on both sides of that—giving those backhanded compliments and receiving them. It’s interesting how those tiny little phrases can reveal so much about how we view success and failure.

Yeah, and it makes you wonder about this whole idea of effort. Like, it’s not just about us, right? It’s about the whole system we’re operating in.

That’s exactly what Fidaner wants us to see. He argues that our ideas about effort, about what it even means to succeed, are all influenced by the system we live in. You know, like capitalism, communism—they each have their own way of shaping how we think about this stuff.

So it’s like these systems are kind of setting the rules of the game—telling us what we should be aiming for, what kind of effort is considered worthy.

Exactly. He’s not really interested in getting into all the political debates around capitalism versus communism, or which one is better.

Yeah, it’s more about how they highlight this idea that there’s always some external force, some authority telling us what our effort is worth.

It’s kind of wild when you think about it like that.

It really is. Because it makes you wonder—are we ever truly free to decide that for ourselves? Like, what does it even mean to succeed on our own terms?

That’s a huge question, right? And it makes you think about that other point Fidaner brings up about potential energy—how it might not be what we think it is.

Hold on, hold on, back up for a second. We were talking about entropy and messy rooms a minute ago. How does potential energy fit into this whole thing?

Okay, so we often think of potential energy as this, like, pre-existing force inside of us just waiting to be unleashed, right? Like, if we just work hard enough, we’re guaranteed to reach our full potential. It’s a really appealing idea.

Yeah, for sure. It’s like that whole “you can be anything you set your mind to” kind of thing.

We hear that a lot, don’t we?

Right. But Fidaner suggests that maybe, just maybe, this whole idea of potential energy is a bit of an illusion.

An illusion? You’re going to have to explain that one.

He’s saying that maybe it’s not something we’re born with, this fixed amount of potential energy. Maybe it’s something we actually create. We look back on our lives, connect the dots, and that’s how we come up with this idea of our potential.

So instead of uncovering some predetermined path, we’re creating our own as we go?

Exactly. It’s about recognizing that life is inherently messy, unpredictable, and our efforts—they’re not about perfectly controlling every little outcome. It’s more about shaping possibilities, you know? It’s like instead of trying to jam a square peg in a round hole, we’re learning to embrace the chaos and mold those experiences into something meaningful.

I like that. It’s a really empowering way to think about it. But I’ve got to be honest, it’s also a little daunting. Because if there’s no blueprint, no clear-cut path, how do we know if we’re even on the right track? What if we end up going in circles? How do we even measure success if there’s no finish line?

That’s the thing, isn’t it? There’s no easy answer, no magic formula. It really comes down to what feels true to you—what makes you feel, I don’t know, vibrantly alive. It’s about those moments, those experiences, those twists and turns that make up the journey. That’s where the real meaning is, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I’m starting to see that. So, it’s less about, like, checking boxes—achieving those traditional markers of success—and it’s more about building something real, something authentic, even if it looks a little messy to other people. Something that’s really, truly yours.

Exactly. And those efforts, those things we might dismiss as useless at first—especially the ones driven by that deep, real engagement—they can lead to the most unexpected, the most amazing outcomes. When we’re so absorbed, so engaged in the process, allowing ourselves to experiment, to stumble, to even make mistakes—that’s where true innovation comes from.

So instead of being terrified of failure, we should kind of, like, embrace it—see it as part of the journey, those necessary stumbles on the way to creating something truly meaningful?

Yes! It’s a total mind shift. Success isn’t this straight line, you know, this constant upward climb. It’s more like—well, it’s more of a dance, a continuous flow of exploring, learning, growing. It’s messy and unpredictable, and that’s okay. That’s where the magic happens.

This whole conversation has been a serious mind-opener. I’ve got to say, Fidaner’s ideas—they really make you think about effort, about success, about this whole crazy, messy journey we call life in a totally different way.

I agree. He’s got such a unique perspective. It’s been great diving into his work with you.

Absolutely. And to everyone listening, if you’re as intrigued by Ishik Barish Fidaner as we are, do yourselves a favor and check out his writing. It’s one of those deep dives that might just change how you see the world. And hey, you might even feel inspired to embrace a little more of that real engagement in your own life.

Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and always keep diving deep.